Conversation Continued…


This is a continuation of a conversation from I Wonder as I Wander

28 comments:
 atimetorend said…
Sometimes I wonder if the line Christianity walks between caring for the poor and setting up a theocracy is part of the OT/NT divide and the Jesus/Paul divide. And with a diversity of view like those to choose from, there is ample opportunity for people to find what the need in the bible to pick the path they prefer. Though I agree with you that it should be incomparable with the verses you cite.

I have Nickled and Dimed on my bookshelf. Really confronts the fact that those issues are real. Have you seen the PBS/Bill Moyers documentary on Tom DeLay (“Capitol Crimes”)? Was very eye-opening to me, yeah, things really are as bad as we can imagine.

April 18, 2010 3:40 AM 
 OneSmallStep said…
Atimetorend,

**And with a diversity of view like those to choose from, there is ample opportunity for people to find what the need in the bible to pick the path they prefer. **

There absolutely is. To some degree, I think liberal Christians are more honest about this. The conservative Christians I come across aren’t, and so in a lot of ways, can never have a mindset that understands where others are coming from in terms of Biblical interpretation.

I haven’t seen the PBS documentary on Tom Delay. If I want to maintain my optimism about the future, I probably shouldn’t. 🙂

April 18, 2010 4:38 PM 
 Sarge said…
The poor…especially where I live, we have plenty.

Remember what that doofus in South Carolina said about “The Poor” not long ago? That’s the basic sentiment of a goodly portion of the “not-poor”. Dry up and blow away, do it unobtrusively, and leave your kids to fight our wars. We don’t have a stasis chamber? Damn! We’ll have to FEED them!

About the only people here who aren’t pretty much hand-to-mouth are communications workers, health care workers, and gov’t/military pensioners like myself.

But I think it is largely bound up in an American cultural thing, success and failure. Success, no matter how many laws you broke, people you hurt, damage you do is “GOOD” hence so are the people who are successful. You can be a mean, ignorant asshole, but money/power makes it just fine. The clarion call, “But there’s MONEY in it,” forgives all.

Failure is “BAD”, a certain taint of unworthines (sloth? foolishness? weakness?) is implied, “loser” is the given title of one in that position, and they deserve nothing but a slap upside the head at random from passersby. Certainly contemptuous hisses should be their lot.

Many an editorial in our local rag as to “Beware Of The Liberal Agenda” being foisted onto hapless congregations by “Liberal, communist” preachers.

They ain’t havin’ any of that be-good-to-the-poor shit. In fact, some (interestingly, some who up to now insisted that the King James Version was the inerrant, literal word of their deity) demand that the bible be ammended to get all that “socialist, commie crap” out of it.

Just think: King James, a progressive populist! Who would have guessed? Probably not Ol’ Jimmy!

Very much smacks of the Calvinist, though. The conservatives always seem to go that route, plus, with the conservative bunch, they get some muscle that the “left” (or so they think) is too pussified to use.

I’ve noticed that around here, people’s greatest fear is that the next guy may get something at a lower price or even (shudder!) free that the shudderer payed retail for. I think some would rather be skinned alive than see that.

April 23, 2010 4:11 AM 
 OneSmallStep said…
Sarge,

**Very much smacks of the Calvinist, though.**

Agreed. A lot of this seems to stem from the idea that God is in complete control, and dictates what happens to you. Therefore, no one is at the mercy of fate or chance. If you try your hardest and fail, the failure means that you did something wrong, rather than sometimes people simply fail no matter how hard they genuinely try.

April 24, 2010 10:39 AM 
 societyvs said…
I think this way too about this subject…and wonder those exact same things…how come Conservative Christians are drawn to a party that promotes a lot of things they dislike? Easy answer – stance on abortion and gay marriage…which tells you how simple the Conservative Christians actually are.

If the devil came out tomorrow against abortion and gay marriage – would they change tunes? Probably not. They are polarized so bad they cannot seperate their religion from their politics now.

I was once in their camp, all those years ago (some 10-12 years ago). I changed my tune as I started to learn more about society and how it functions. There are more problems than abortion that are ruining this planet – war being one of them (war being supported by Conservatives with really little to no thought).

Conservative Christians will either learn to change or bankrupt this country of any meaning it has.

April 26, 2010 1:58 PM 
 ethinethin said…
societyvs
“There are more problems than abortion that are ruining this planet – war being one of them (war being supported by Conservatives with really little to no thought). ”

I agree with you completely, although I’m sure a lot of the Christian support for the massacres in the middle east (don’t wars typically have two sides fighting?) comes because these modern-day Crusades symbolize killing Muslims and brown people, two “outgroups” to conservative Christan Americans.

I often find myself having simple musings such as “Why do Christians love guns?” Gun ownership is probably the favorite constitutional right of conservative Christian Americans. Out of the many Christians I know personally, very few of them actually use their guns to hunt. It’s all for “self-defense”. Why should deadly force self-defense be so important to people taught to love their enemies and to turn the other cheek?

I guess the answer is obvious when you’re on the outside looking in at the hypocrisy.

April 26, 2010 8:18 PM 
 OneSmallStep said…
Societyvs,

That’s just it, though. Conservative Christians don’t come across as disliking anything the Republican party does. Whether it be gun rights or free market capitalism with absolutely no restrictions — no matter how many people it hurts. Whether it be the lies or the horrendous political ads. It’s almost like they’re attracted to the Republican party precisely *because* of all the ugliness.

April 27, 2010 4:04 PM 
 OneSmallStep said…
Ethinethin,

**Why should deadly force self-defense be so important to people taught to love their enemies and to turn the other cheek?**

Not only that, why is deadly force self-defense so necessary for a group of people who claim to be under the protection of an omnipotent, omniscient deity? Why are they relying on themselves, rather than God? And why are they so attracted to the thought of violently defending themselves? I’m wondering how much of this stems from their persecution complex …

April 27, 2010 4:06 PM 
 Xander said…
“Why should deadly force self-defense be so important to people taught to love their enemies and to turn the other cheek?”

I have never seen it taken out of context like that before. So, what is taught?

April 29, 2010 8:56 AM 
 ethinethin said…
Do good to those who hate you (Luke 6:27-28), do not return evil for evil (1 Peter 3:9), overcome evil with good (Romans 12:21). I’m not a Christian, so perhaps I’m misinterpreting these (fairly straightforward) passages. I am certain there are apologetics to defend killing people, considering Christendom’s violent past.

April 29, 2010 10:32 AM 
 Xander said…
Luke is referring to persecution, 1 Peter is talking about retaliation, and Romans is also referring to retaliation. If people wrong you, do not go after them demanding retribution.

Being that killing is not isolated to the religious, I guess every group can defend killing.

April 29, 2010 11:01 AM 
 OneSmallStep said…
Xander,

I’m not following your objection — are you saying that deadly force in self-defense is permissible for a Christian, unless the situation specifically involves persecution or retaliation?

April 30, 2010 4:38 PM 
 Xander said…
Self defense isn’t even addressed in those verses, so they are not really connected. The verses address how a Christian should respond to an attack from another. Attack here is non physical. If someone attacks their character, insults, etc. you let it go. Do not reply in the same manner.

Self-defense is not addressed negatively in the Bible. The disciples carried swords for protection and the turn the other cheek part deals with lawsuits when insulted after being slapped by the back of the hand. That was an insult and legal action could be taken.

April 30, 2010 10:47 PM 
 OneSmallStep said…
Xander,

Well, the thing is, the point was why should deadly self-defense be so important to those taught to love their enemies, as well as turn the other cheek? For there is a difference between defending oneself, and defending oneself through lethal means.

1 Peter 3:9 — the book itself, though, is admonising people on the proper behavior in front of unjust treatment — such as the earlier section, where the slaves are to endure pain while suffering unjustly, for when Christ was abused, he didn’t return abuse, and when he suffered, he didn’t threaten anyone, but rather trusted God. So when it says that Christians shouldn’t return evil for evil or abuse for abuse, but rather repay with a blessing … I could see that encompassing how to respond when physically threatened. Especially given how Jesus responded when physically threatened.

Romans 12:21 — in the whole chapter, it’s Paul telling Christians about how their loving behavior should be genuine, patient in suffering, how they should never avenge themselves but leave room for God’s wrath, and thus believers should feed their enemies when they’re hungry, and give them something to drink when thirsty, in order to shame the enemy. Then Paul concludes with “do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” I would see this stretching across the board, and including deadly self-defense, with the leaving room for God’s wrath, the be patient in suffering, and, yes, even the “don’t be overcome by evil,” as violence isn’t seen in a positive light for a Christian believer.

Luke 6: 27-28 — there’s a similar one in Matthew 5:44, about how it’s no longer acceptable to follow the “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” Rather, when struck, turn and offer the other cheek. No, this section isn’t saying to be a doormat. But the person would’ve been with the back of the aggressor’s fist, and being struck in such a manner was a sign that the aggressor saw the aggressee as inferior. When the aggressee offers the left cheek, it forces the aggressor to treat the agressee as an equal, because the only way to continue to strike with the backhand is to use the left hand, and the left hand is taboo in that culture. But considering that “eye for an eye” is what leads up to this, isn’t using deadly self-defense also an eye for an eye?

Is there any verse where Paul or Jesus tell their followers that if the followers are physically attacked, it’s acceptable to use deadly force in self-defense?

The swords — the only reference I find is from Luke 22:36-38, and while Jesus tells them to get swords, that’s used (somehow) to fulfill Isaiah 53:12. And Peter is immediately chastised for using the sword later, and Jesus heals the guard’s severed ear.

May 1, 2010 5:57 PM 
 Xander said…
Are people with guns attacked less because they will shoot or because they could shoot? The potential is enough of a deterrent the majority of the time.

1 Peter 3:9 – Jesus submitted to the authorities and was thus obedient. It is not the same as failing to retaliate when someone called him a name or accused Him of something. I don’t think gun owners are wanting to shoot someone for calling them a name.

Romans 12:21 – so when someone breaks in to rape your wife, go make them a sandwich? It must be the way you see enemy. It is not talking about someone who comes up and assaults you or steals from you. Evil is not talking about physical harm here.

Luke 6:27 – Let’s put this in context. Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you and pray for those who abuse you. Abuse is insult or slander here. Not a case for lethal force to be used since there was no defense except emotional. An “eye for an eye” was not used to show self defense. In order for an eye for an eye to happen, one even that cause you loss had to occur then you would have to retaliate. It was not you were being assaulted and lost an eye then said hey that’s not fair I must pluck your eye out now.

“Is there any verse where Paul or Jesus tells their followers that if the followers are physically attacked, it’s acceptable to use deadly force in self-defense?”
No

I can see how Jesus relates back to that verse, but not the swords. Peter was admonished for cutting the ear, but he struck out against the authority in this case. Authority is very big in the message of the gospels. Isn’t it strange that they would wear swords if they had never worn them before? Since the disciples where still in disbelief that Jesus should die, wouldn’t they have questioned this if it was out of the norm?

May 1, 2010 11:36 PM 
 OneSmallStep said…
Xander,

**Are people with guns attacked less because they will shoot or because they could shoot? The potential is enough of a deterrent the majority of the time. **

But this still doesn’t answer the question. Forget discussing the relevance of the three passage previously mentioned. Why do we have a group of people so gung-ho about gun rights, when we’re told that this same group of people is supposed to act in a separate way than the world does? When they’re supposed to be better? When they’re supposed to love one’s enemy as themselves?

Because it’s saying a lot of things about that particular culture — a) they’re very dependent on permanent violence to defend themselves, b) it’s an outlook dominated by fear and c) they must have the means to protect themselves through violent and permanent measures, as though they’re the only ones who *can* protect themselves.

1 Peter 3:9 — I’m confused here. You earlier said that this verse dealt with how to retaliate, or not retaliate. So are you saying that the verse actually deals with something different, in submitting to authorities? Because what I’m still seeing when I read what leads up to this verse is the idea that Christ did not retaliate when he was abused or suffered unjustly, and because the cross is mentioned, I’m seeing this as something that goes far beyond name-calling or accusations. The fact that it’s an authority doesn’t change this for me, because authorities can be wrong, or corrupt, and thus require self-defense.

Romans 12:21 — so when how are you interpreting the “leaving vengeance to God” aspect? Or telling believers to be patient in suffering? If we’re going to go with your example, we don’t get much more of a vengeance scenario than wanting to stop someone who is about to cause harm to a loved one. But the thing is, if this isn’t referring to physical acts, then the words used here are trivialized. Like suffering — suffering from what, if nothing physical? Or blessing those who persecute you, but what kind of persecution, if nothing physical? Words? Slander? Yes, those are harsh, but don’t they pale in comparison to constant physical attacks?

Luke 6:27 — from what I’ve read, the word can refer to both physical and emotional mistreatment. And the “eye for an eye” thing was meant to show that the words leading up to this whole thing did involve physical aspects — if someone causes you a physical loss, then you are entitled to a physical compensation of the same measure. Hence, I would see the following words with loving one’s enemies also involving physical actions (or lack thereof).

Luke 22:36-38 — the sword thing referring to Isaiah is something I’ve come across in a few Bible commentaries, both liberal and conservative. It’s related to how Jesus said “enough, enough” when they only got two swords, for it’s difficult to protect a group with just two swords, with Jesus saying “Those who live by the sword die by the sword” and his reaction when Peter cut off the guard’s ear. Like I said, it somehow relates, and this was explained because the commentaries were saying that this verse couldn’t actually be used to show support for self-defense.

May 2, 2010 4:07 PM 
 Xander said…
Not all people who want assault rifles are Christian, so I cannot speak for all of them. As far as the Christian people who want to stockpile weapons in case of the end of the world or the government turns against them, they are wrong. From the Christian standpoint, they are living according to the desires of the flesh and fighting authority. For Christians who like guns and want to protect their family in case the authorities can’t, there is nothing biblical against that. Love you neighbor does not mean let them come in and terrorize your family. Not worried about people breaking in for food, because we are told to give to those who ask without expecting repayment. Christians are supposed to be better how? We can love our enemy. When they slander, we should love. When they attack via finances, we love. When they break in and try to kill us, we love.

People sue when they are stopped using nonviolent means. I am not saying it is right, but when did the person committing the felony become the victim? Your right, people are afraid. Violent crimes have are up and people are scared. I guess the people would rather take their chances defending themselves instead of waiting 15+ minutes for law enforcement to arrive. 15 minutes is a lot of time for someone to kill you. If you couldn’t alert law enforcement, it would take a lot longer.

1 Peter 3:9 – you had mentioned that Jesus did not fight back or struggle when being persecuted against in your portion. It was not what the verse was talking about, but I addressed as you brought it up. Yes, Christians are to submit to the authorities even if the authorities are wrong.

Romans 12:21 – someone breaks into your house when you are not home to defend and kills your child. To hunt down the person and retaliate would be vengeance. The eye for an eye clause. That is for God to handle. You can suffer in many ways other than physical trauma. Even if it is physical trauma though, you can suffer. Who was committing the attacks, random people? The authorities were persecuting. The authorities were beating and torturing. Submit and suffer.

Luke 6:27 – this is the word: epereazo combined with ??e?? areia (threats); to insult, slander: – use despitefully, falsely accuse.

Eye for an eye would be when someone harms you and then you go for vengeance. Not at the same time as the injury occurs. Replaced with vengeance is mine sayth the Lord.

Luke 22:36-38 not going to argue with you on this one. I would have to see to understand it.

May 3, 2010 5:02 AM 
 OneSmallStep said…
Xander,

**Christians are supposed to be better how? **

Not be more enthusiastic about gun rights than a non-Christian. This goes far beyond a mere liking of ordinary guns. This is a projection of the idea that the second amendment is one of their favorites in the Constitution, of giving the idea of if they had to choose between gun freedom or an increase of government assistance to the poor, they’d flock to the gun freedoms. This is the same group that is absolutely 100% behind the idea of a military conflict to solve all problems. About violent methods to solve violent problems, and thus return violence for violence. Given how often conservative Christians claim the moral high ground, I would expect more elevating behavior.

1 Peter 3:9 — Yes, I had mentioned Jesus not fighting back, because I see it connected to the later verse of not returning abuse for abuse, same as when Jesus didn’t return abuse for abuse, even when physically threatened. Based on your responses, I’m assuming that you don’t.

Romans 12: 21 — does it matter who’s committing the actions? Because if it does, then the meaning of evil isn’t consistent. Paul’s saying to not return evil for evil, and to not be overcome by evil. But the evil that the people are doing is the persecution, regardless whether it’s physical or emotional. But if the evil is returned, it sounds like, based on what you’re saying, that the evil is disobeying the authorities. Not retaliating in the same physical fashion, because the act itself is evil.

**Luke 6:27 – this is the word: epereazo combined with ??e?? areia (threats); to insult, slander: – use despitefully, falsely accuse.**

Yes. I”ve seen commentaries that state it refers to both types of abuse, physical and emotional.

I’m curious about something, though, and this is a side topic. Your comments are stressing that the primary drive in these verses is about submitting to authority, no matter what. Do you say that’s true across the board? Such as, if the authorities suddenly decried that Christianity was illegal and all churches must disband. Are Christians allowed to protest that, or must the submit? If Christians live in a country that severely restricts the civil rights of many of the inhabitants, are Christians allowed to help or fight back? Or must they submit?

May 3, 2010 4:27 PM 
 Xander said…
I agree, but they are a minority of those who call themselves Christians. They are a vocal minority, so you see more attention drawn to them. I know plenty of people of other religious affiliations that are in agreement with them, so it is not a Christian movement.

1 Peter 3:9 – look at verse 9 and 10 together:
Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. For “Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit;
(1Pe 3:9-10 ESV)

The context is not in a physical confrontation.

Romans 12:21 – sadly, the meaning of any word in English is not consistent.

Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
(Rom 12:12-21 ESV)

It is a way of life. Don’t start fights. If someone wrongs you, don’t go after them for retribution. Be nice to people who are mean to you. Be at peace with others, so far as it depends on you. Self defense is not wrong.
If the government was a democracy where protest was legal, then yes. Not where it is not, like Egypt or China. Can Christians help each other in china? They do. They do not rebel against the government though. Christians were not called to over throw governments. That is where the spiritual war comes into play. They would pray for the leaders and that God’s will would be done. If the police came in to persecute them, as they do, they would submit. If it was neighborhood bullies, they could resist.

May 3, 2010 10:13 PM 
 Yael said…
Did Christians who supported the American Revolution sin by doing so? Are Christians who support wars that seek to overthrow other governments sinning by doing so? Do Christians who emigrate to escape tyranny commit sin by doing so?

Did Christians sin by hiding Jews during WWII, an anti-government action? Should Christians have just prayed for God to stop Hitler rather than going to war to stop him?

Are missionaries in Muslim countries who hide their real purpose in being there, sinning by being missionaries there? How about smuggling Bibles into places they’re not allowed? Is that a sin? How about Christian proselytizing in Israel? Is that also a sin?

May 4, 2010 5:07 PM 
 Sarge said…
The “sin” question proposed by Jael is always interesting. If (a), what about (b)?

Depends on what happens at the end of the day and who’s writing about what happened. Plus there are somewhat deeper issues which muddy the waters.

A good example is the role of the chaplain.

Pretty much day to day in normal life in that setting, it’s sort of like being a social worker, but mainly the job is to keep the villiennery and Jaquery from saying “screw you” to the “sirs” and walking off or acting out. Making them accept that it is a “sin” (at least a societal one) to be angry at injustice, dishonesty and mistreatment. That it is right and meet to bless the hand that slaps you, lick the boot that kicks you, and to kiss the ass that shits on you.

In time of war there are other duties, acting for the state to ensure that when the social norms are loosed and everything that the troop has been taught is right, wrong, moral, immoral, sinful, even, is now upended because the state requires it and so, (state and religion being in cahoots no matter what any constitution or law might say, power to power) and they are “rendering unto caesar” and thus it’s OK. Jesus said so.

The trick is, to keep them at it no matter what. They have some amazing gymnastics to perform: it’s acceptable to destroy and maim innocents and people you’ve never even met, let alone harmed you (not “sin”), but thoughts about not doing it, or worse, using your zap-gun to repay the injustices personally done you by someone you DO know (officer, NCO, a jerk who stole from you or caused you some harm) and we’re talkin’ real sin here! Complete non-justification.

Sadam Hussein is said to have used women and children as “human shields” which was reprehensible and “sinful”. Chopping those people to dog meat, though, in furtherence of The Mission and The Greater Good was justified.

May 5, 2010 4:46 AM 
 Sarge said…
The “poor” like their guns because they know that this is their only real security, and their real belief in christianity is the belief in believing.

Oh, they go to their churches, moan or shout their hymns, weep at the mourner’s bench, feel guilty for committing the high crime of having been born human, sit with like minded folks, and cherry pick to their “scriptures” for what suits them, and yeah, they hedge their bets with baptism and “salvation”.

But deep down, they know that the only help they can ever expect is what they provide for themselves, in a nutshell.

May 5, 2010 4:53 AM 
 societyvs said…
Love the conversation between OSS and Xander BTW. I want to comment on it.

I think OSS is being pretty true to the passages at hand – namely the use of ‘swords’ by the disciples. Xander mentioned they must have carried them all the time…I doubt that. Is not Jesus in a story where he send 70 people out with ‘nothing’? Nowhere in that example is there a ‘sword’. In fact, throughout the whole NT the word ‘sword’ is only used as a literal device in the one story OSS mentions (in matt).

All that being said, the overwhelming burden of evidence seems to state the use of ‘swords’ by the disciples (and the early church) was non-existent – except in one small scenario where an actual disciples was reprimanded for his use even.

As for violence, why didn’t Peter, James, John or Paul fight to the death if this was in their mode of thought already (ie: self defense)? We have a story in Acts about a dude named Stephen (whom Paul watched die) being killed…no sword and unbelievably – no self defense. And no one pushing others into civic duty to fight for the Roman army in the letters (not even once is this broached as a subject).

If I have to lean – then I have to lean to the obvious – war and violence (retribution) are never to be suggested as a way of life for a Christian. Conservative right – is wrong (for Christians I mean).

However, there are deviations for to the standard that can logistically be seen as ‘life saving’ (which I think is a good allowance for deviating from the standard). You mention saving your wife and children from an attack – agreed – that is life saving – to deviate away from the standard in such cases seems ‘justifiable’. But at the end, we admit the standard is still the standard and we swear to uphold it.

my 10 cents on non-violence.

May 5, 2010 10:39 AM 
 societyvs said…
“Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God…” (Romans 12)

“Self defense is not wrong.” (Xander)

What is you fine line that you are towing?

You can defend yourself (if attacked) if you have the means but cannot exact revenge if attacked and you couldn’t do anything at the time of the attack?

Isn’t punching someone back in the face a type of ‘venegance’? Is it our right to ‘repay’? Does it matter if it happens in that split second or we brew on it and get revenge later?

Just wondering is all.

May 5, 2010 10:57 AM 
 Xander said…
“I doubt that. Is not Jesus in a story where he send 70 people out with ‘nothing’?”

So in your version, they were running around naked spreading the message that the Messiah has arrived? My version shows they went out without any additional provisions and were to rely on the generosity of others. As to the using of swords, there is no reason for Peter to even be wearing a sword unless he was used to it. Not really a fashion statement.

“We have a story in Acts about a dude named Stephen (whom Paul watched die)”

Paul was inciting the mob that was killing Stephen. That was pre-salvation days though.

“”Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God…” (Romans 12)”

I guess you can avenge yourself right after being struck, but then if they avenge your avenging, it is considered a fight, as you are both striking each other with in a short period of time. If you are going to avenge yourself through legal means for example, it has to happen after the assault has finished because otherwise you are in the process of being beaten.

May 5, 2010 1:11 PM 
 societyvs said…
“My version shows they went out without any additional provisions and were to rely on the generosity of others” (Xander)

correctamundo! Is a sword mentioned – since they may be entering hostile territories and might need it to ward of attackers?

“As to the using of swords, there is no reason for Peter to even be wearing a sword unless he was used to it. Not really a fashion statement.” (Xander)

Not true, at least according to the story, They actually have to go and ‘get’ the swords (2 of them). These were not something they actually had on them in that story…but in order to fulfill prophecy they need them. You know what that prophecy is:

“And was numbered with the transgressors’ (Isaiah 53C – quoted in Luke 22:37)

According to Jesus, who sends them to find 2 swords in the Luke 22 story (if we take this account as true), he did this so he could be numbered alongside ‘transgressors’ (of the law). Jesus saw this as a ‘criminal’ act.

According to Luke the use of the swords is simply for prophecy reasons alone. In Matthew the use of the sword is no ‘better’:

“”Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword” (Matt 26:52)

Jesus seems to be telling Peter pretty staight here in a tone that would resemble more audacity for his actions than praise. If anything, Jesus seems to be telling Peter this is not ‘his way’ of doing things. Thus he heals the injured soldier (his way of doing things).

“Paul was inciting the mob that was killing Stephen. That was pre-salvation days though” (Xander)

Point is, Stephen – whose life was on the line here – did not defend himself…instead he looks like Jesus in his final minutes of life (except more wordy). He does nothing to defend himself, nor does anyone oppose the crowd in a battle scene. It seems clear cut the message they are sending with this story…wanna be like Jesus – it’s gonna be tough to have this typeof self-discipline (even unto death).

May 5, 2010 3:33 PM 
 Xander said…
“correctamundo! Is a sword mentioned – since they may be entering hostile territories and might need it to ward of attackers?”

Is the sword forbidden? There was a list of items not to take and a sword was not on that list. It is a difference in interpretation.

“Not true, at least according to the story, They actually have to go and ‘get’ the swords (2 of them). These were not something they actually had on them in that story…but in order to fulfill prophecy they need them. You know what that prophecy is:”

I read that one differently.

Luke 22:35-38 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” (36) He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. (37) For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.” (38) And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.”

“Let the one with no sword sell his cloak and buy one. Look we have two. ” I guess you could assume either they already had two or they had to go buy two. I am under the impression that they already had two as if they went to go buy swords after being told that who ever didn’t have one should get one, they would have returned with more than two.

“And was numbered with the transgressors’ (Isaiah 53C – quoted in Luke 22:37)”

Isn’t this talking about Jesus and not the apostles.

Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

He was counted as a transgressor/offender, not because of the swords but because He claimed to be God.

“Point is, Stephen – whose life was on the line here – did not defend himself…instead he looks like Jesus in his final minutes of life (except more wordy).”

I am not saying self-defense is required. I am saying it is not forbidden.

May 5, 2010 4:17 PM 
 societyvs said…
“Is the sword forbidden? There was a list of items not to take and a sword was not on that list. It is a difference in interpretation” (Xander)

No, but neither is porn – yet I think we could all agree based on the scriptures about sexual transgressions it is not something we should really have much to do with. I guess a Christian could work in the porn industry if they choose, it’s not neccesarily fobidden.

If we start using that logic then I guess many things ‘not mentioned’ could be used by Christians in any variety of ways – from porn to guns to abortion.

Swords is never given much of a ‘thumbs up’ – rather the opposite seems to be true concering the NT passages on the lives of the many disciples. So, like I said before, if I have to lean in a direction – the NT is very clear on the direction to lean – and this would include the use of weapons designed to hurt other people.

“I am under the impression that they already had two as if they went to go buy swords after being told that who ever didn’t have one should get one, they would have returned with more than two.” (Xander)

They just may have had 2 swords – agreed. However, through-out the while gospel stories – how many times is that sword ever used/mentioned? This seems to be the first we ever hear about someone following Jesus even having a sword. If the gospels are ‘pro-weapons’ they do a great job in promotion (sarcasm).

“He was counted as a transgressor/offender, not because of the swords but because He claimed to be God” (Xander)

Not in this exact passage did he claim anything but fulfillling this scripture in Isaiah 53 (Luke 22). Here is the time-line:

(a) Jesus advises them ‘all’ to go and arm themselves with ‘swords’

(b) So that he might fill the prophecy of being ‘numbered/counted amongst/with the transgressors (of the law)’

(c) They find 2 swords…one of which is used by Peter in a violent manner to maim another person

I thought you might be right on this one so I carefully read it again:

“(36) He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. (37) For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.”

If one simply reads that straight across with no pre-conceived notions theologically it’s quite apparent Jesus is telling his disciples to ‘get swords’ so he can be counted amongst the transgressors (his own disciples). Jesus clearly states the reason they need these swords – ‘For what is written about me has its fulfillment’ – speaking of Isaiah 53C. The thing that is happening in Isaiah 53C is being fulfilled right there at that exact moment.

“I am not saying self-defense is required. I am saying it is not forbidden.” (Xander)

I am saying it is not the standard to be used by Christians. Self defense sounds good on paper – and so does war at times – but it is not the NT standard for Christians. Non-violence at any cost seems to be the standard for Christians in the fulfillment of the idea ‘treat others how you want to be treated’.

May 6, 2010 7:52 AM

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2 responses to “Conversation Continued…

  1. “If we start using that logic then I guess many things ‘not mentioned’ could be used by Christians in any variety of ways – from porn to guns to abortion. (societyvs.)”

    I see what you are saying about implied rules of conduct. I would suggest that we have to go back to what ever verses actually address the subject and prayer of course and see what comes of it. Is abortion considered murder? Biblically God knew you before He began forming you in your mothers womb. You were a real person who would be murdered if removed from the body. Christians are not directed to avoid military service in the Bible but they are directed to submit to government authorities. It was not a problem for Jews and Christianity is a sect of Judaism, so wouldn’t it hold that military service is not wrong. I am not promoting war, but the blanket statement that it is wrong doesn’t seem right either.

    “They just may have had 2 swords – agreed. However, through-out the while gospel stories – how many times is that sword ever used/mentioned? This seems to be the first we ever hear about someone following Jesus even having a sword. If the gospels are ‘pro-weapons’ they do a great job in promotion (sarcasm). (societyvs.)”

    But the gospels are of spreading the message of Jesus, through words and not by force. Who ever rejected the message rejected it. Jesus admonished James and John for wanting to call down fire on those who rejected the message (Luke 9:54). Jesus was not about forcing the message on people.

    They traveled between town to town though and logic dictates that they would have carried some weapons for self defense. There were highway men who would stop and rob travelers. I am suggesting it is not unreasonable to think they would be familiar with their use.

    “(36) He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. (37) For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment. (societyvs.)”

    Back up to verse 35 to get a better context:
    Luke 22:35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.”

    They were lacking nothing before, but now they would be lacking something.

    “If one simply reads that straight across with no pre-conceived notions theologically it’s quite apparent Jesus is telling his disciples to ‘get swords’ so he can be counted amongst the transgressors (his own disciples). Jesus clearly states the reason they need these swords – ‘For what is written about me has its fulfillment’ – speaking of Isaiah 53C. The thing that is happening in Isaiah 53C is being fulfilled right there at that exact moment. (societyvs.)”

    Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.”

    Transgressors means not subject to Jewish law, wicked, unlawful. It wasn’t unlawful to carry swords. The Jewish mob was carrying them when they came and arrested Jesus for claiming to be God. I do not see where the swords were the requirements

    Mat 26:52-54 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. (53) Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? (54) But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

    Mark 14:47-49 But one of those who stood by drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. (48) And Jesus said to them, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? (49) Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But let the Scriptures be fulfilled.”

    Luke 22:49-51 And when those who were around him saw what would follow, they said, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” (50) And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. (51) But Jesus said, “No more of this!” And he touched his ear and healed him.

    John 18:10-11 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.) (11) So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

    When Jesus admonished Peter for using the sword, it was because he was trying to stop the prophecy from occurring not from practicing self-defense.

  2. societyvs

    “Christians are not directed to avoid military service in the Bible but they are directed to submit to government authorities” (Xander)

    Again, this a leaning in a certain direction thing since there is no direct scripture about this. How can a Christian join an army (Roman) that is killing Christians? How can Christian Jewish people join the Jewish resistance – they knew Jesus’ teachings on non-violence (which was one of the reasons for the serious seperation between Christians and Jews in the early 2nd century; Christians would not help in the resistance).

    The facts of the matter are this – Christians did not join the army – Roman or Jewish. Why, if there is so much leeway for such a thing? I think it’s simple, because there was no leeway – and in modern society we want there to be more justification for this action – but the historical tenets of Christianity and scripture (NT) are not leaning in this direction. Christainity is not a nation-state and see’s no reason to defend ‘land or territory’ via violence. In fact, are we not sojourners in this land?

    “They traveled between town to town though and logic dictates that they would have carried some weapons for self defense. There were highway men who would stop and rob travelers. I am suggesting it is not unreasonable to think they would be familiar with their use” (Xander)

    Anything is possible, however there is no hint this is the case. There is actually no violent episode amongst the disciples – even though their master (Jesus) is harrassed at a variety of places in the gospel narratives. If they carried swords, which I personally doubt (since they are not in the army), they never use them and they never get mentioned…and there is no advocate on behalf of these instruments of death in all of scripture.

    “Transgressors means not subject to Jewish law, wicked, unlawful. It wasn’t unlawful to carry swords. The Jewish mob was carrying them when they came and arrested Jesus for claiming to be God. I do not see where the swords were the requirements” (Xander)

    Then why did Jesus say the prophecy – and need the swords in the first place? Jesus actually connects the two in that Luke passage like this: (a) get swords and (b) I will be numbered with the ‘transgressors’. It’s a causal action – do one thing and the other thing is fulfilled. It is not me making the claim that having a sword is a ‘trangression’ (I don’t think it is)…it’s either Luke or Jesus making this point. For some reason having a sword related to fulfilling a prophecy about ‘transgressing’…I see no way around that. The fact it’s swords that are used doesn’t help the case for owning weapons.

    “When Jesus admonished Peter for using the sword, it was because he was trying to stop the prophecy from occurring not from practicing self-defense” (Xander)

    Well that’s part of it – but Jesus was also non-violent. His commendation to Peter is ‘use that sword, you will also die by the sword’…basically if you want to live violently prepare to die that way to. Jesus was not ‘in favor’ of Peter’s action regardess of the prophecy or not…he even healed the man (repairing the damage). In Luke Jesus says ‘no more of this!’ (emphatically). No more of what? Violence…to protect Jesus of all things. Self defense plea out the window (if we want to follow Jesus’ life as a model).

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